Correcting the Correctors: Part 1
I am ever so grateful to JebatMustDie for letting my article be surrogated in his website. Someone mentioned that I should have my own blog and to that I humbly agree, instead of being a digital hobo here and there, blogless and penniless (hehehe). Just that, to paraphrase Mick Jagger, Time is not on My Side. Equally grateful too for all the commentators who take their time to comment on my article, whether supporting or “correcting” me, and in the light of new evidences from the net as regards to the issues that I touched above, whether it be numbers, police brutality, “peaceful” rallies and so on, I have taken the time to study them as best as I could, and I have visited the relevant youtube videos or photographs related to the rally displayed in other websites. I am now ready to discuss this issue again, admit my errors should there be any or correct my correctors if they warrant to be corrected.
But before I dwelve into that let me tell you a cute little story. My friend was involved in a minor accident in Klang some years back, between his car and a car driven by some young people. My friend said it was clearly his fault, and he was ready to face the consequences, but he needed the insurance to pay for both cars and so a police report must be made, understanding that if he does that, there will be additional fine by the police to him due to his error.
Now upon alighting at the Police station and presenting their stories and all the necessary documents, it turned out that none of the young driver or passengers in the other car had a valid driving license! With this revelation, the police shifted the fault purely on these youngsters and let my friend go free. They contented that once you are not with a valid driving license, EVERYTHING YOU DO ON THE ROAD is a crime. In fact just BEING there is a crime. Their whole presence, existence on the road is a crime, and crimes that other people seemed to have committed against you (like my friend) probably would not have been committed if the PRESENCE of a crime generator, crime nucleus (the young kids) was not there in the first place. Case closed, my friend got off scot free and some over-testosteroned adolescents got some lessons taught by their dads at home.
Such is the case of this BERSIH rally. We could just STOP any arguments right here and there, once the police have declared that it is illegal to have such an assembly. And not only that, the police have also issued a statement of what they will DO beforehand: close some parts of the roads, seal off some intersections and warn people not to continue their illegal march. Now by disobeying this order itself is a crime and technically, those who did attend it were criminals. Oh no—don’t be melodramatic and say that you are not murderers or rapists or thieves. You very well know that there are different grades of crimes. But a crime is a crime. Let’s get over that fact.
One thing that permeates the minds of these goers here is the false sense of absolution in doing a criminal act. “The police do not let us. But let us still go any way. What’s wrong in that”. How do I reply to such an error? Well perhaps with an analogy involving your daughter. She wants to go out with her friends late into the wee hours of the morning. Knowing that beforehand, you issue a warning not to leave the house without your permission. Secretly she goes out anyway, and when you admonish her the first thing when she returns at 4am, and asked her why she didn’t ask for your permission her reply was that if she had, you wouldn’t have given any permission anyway. Skewed logic? Feeble dialectic? Perhaps. But multiply that 6000 times in magnitude (or 50,000 or 300,000 whatever pleases you) and you now get the meaning of Bersih!
Continuing on your daughter, a most hideous event occurred: she was robbed and raped at 3am. “But it wasn’t my fault,” she said. “I didn’t wear any skimpy dresses or anything”. Again, the argument falls back to the same initial staunch syllogistic: “If you had not been out there initially and disobeying my orders, this would not have happened!” And here’s another clincher-scenario: let’s say BEFORE going out on that blissful, unlawful spree, your daughter had been WARNED by the robber that if anybody passes along this way or that, they would be robbed and raped. Yes, a most cartoonish example but for argument’s sake let’s say still she goes. So your daughter now is completely free from blame?
I can feel already some detractors reading this already cracking their knuckles and itchying to type on their keyboards: “but this is different. Your daughter’s story and the Bersih story are different. They are apples and oranges”. You are right, my friend. It doesn’t compare. The Bersih rally, had the police decided to allow it, would be much more worse than facing some over-pheromoned rapist facing skimpy-dressed girls.
Now let’s get to the matter at present. It seems that many points raised are more rhetorical rather than factual, especially those who care to reply in another “top-10 list” style. These are just knee-jerk reactions, and having glanced with one eye at some of them, I conclude that they have been answered in my initial postings and in some other comments anyway. But I think you all agree with me regarding ONE topic which rears up again and again: Police Brutality.
Apocryphalist says:
July 13, 2011 at 3:58 pm
**************************************************
Correcting the Correctors: Part 2
Were there any police brutalities? Well you know what, people. I think you better research more and get some MORE videos because I am not convinced that there is any police brutality AT ALL. If you say spraying with watersprays, chasing round the block, shouting to the crowd to disperse them is brutality, you really do NOT know what Brutality really is. Ok if you show that single video of a police kicking one protester, that is peanuts compared with what other police around the world do, facing insurgents. Additionally, one do not see the whole story:if, for example, the police reacted like that due to being provoked or even attacked (Tian Chua, you read this?), then kicking is the kindest thing a police can do.
“O My Gooddd! Is Apocryphalist condoning the brutal actions of the police shown in the multitudes of videos that abound out there?”. Answer: Yes, No, No and No.
Should the police should act with measures extraneous than just kind verbal “Di Pinta hadirin sekelian bersurai. Tolong lah”. Yes. Because once you do not heed police warnings and insistence, then should the police allow that to continue, you do not know to what lengths the mob could escalate their provocations.
Should the Police just allow the marches to just go on “peacefully” as they claimed? No. The KDN, the police have looked at all angles. Firstly the organizers said that they promise the rally to be non-political. Then all manner of political innuendos started creeping in, and the rally was led by political personages, minus the symbolic stooges.
Was it apolitical, free-from ideologies? Nope. They found banners and brochures extolling for and a return to old socialistic and communistic ideas. Could it just purely be peaceful if the police had allowed it? No. Prior to the rally, molotov cocktails were found, weapons were amassed and those with pure intent to just “grieve about elections” could be easily be hijacked into joining a truly dangerous, violent insurgent which has nothing to do with elections at all.
Are our policemen now joining the ranks of Brutal and Inhuman police force that are so much despised elsewhere in the globe? Not at all. Here’s what it means to be a REALLY brutal police force:-
Greece
Georgia
Spain:
Denmark
A word of advice though: please do NOT show these videos to our local Malaysian policemen, for fear they might regret that their actions last Saturday deemed too kind or sissy compared with what their other compatriots the rest of the world react when faced by such a situation.
But another factor intrigues my mind. That is the opposite of police brutality. What if the police are actually peaceful and non-violent, but it is the CROWD that provokes the violence in the frst place. There is great evidence here:
Important! Must See Video !
Please take time to watch the video above. Our discussions are based on it.
Now in this video we can clearly the following:-
The police are static, non-confrontational, non-provocative. And then:-
• Perhaps seeing no action, and not getting the correct reaction that he had in mind (videographer standing by to record “police Brutality”, ready to upload to mobile laptop instantly and then sent to youtube so that Malaysia can be broadcasted worldwide as an “Oppressing, Brutal, Violent regime”) Tian Chua gets impatient, discusses with some malay cows behind, and then “One, Two, Three … Chaaarggeee!” (or something to that effect). 0:16
• Only upon being charged in like manner by the hooligans, and as a defensive measure, the police fired out smoke cannisters to prevent the crowd from attacking them. 0:20
• If the police had not shot the relatively harmless smoke cans, no one knows what would have happened to those charging mob: in the attempt to attack the police, they themselves could have sustained much more serious injuries.
Interestingly, once the police fired the canisters, the rebel rousers lari bertempiaran like lipas kudung — Tian Chua and all. I know. This is not the time for jokes but heck, where goeth the fighting spirit, comrades? Or is it just all cock-talk?
Incidentally, now that the video is up and about, I think the powers that be should seriously look into this matter. This is not just a demo: this is pure evidence of the vicious and provocative nature of the “peaceful Bersih” mobsters, particularly of Tian Chua. I am sure we can find a lot of articles in our constitution that find such a behaviour as purely outright criminal.
Anyway I have a lot more to say but let’s have a look at Jebat’s latest article. What is this Bersih all about, what are its origins and how should a true Malaysian regard it.
Apocryphalist
I am ever so grateful to JebatMustDie for letting my article be surrogated in his website. Someone mentioned that I should have my own blog and to that I humbly agree, instead of being a digital hobo here and there, blogless and penniless (hehehe). Just that, to paraphrase Mick Jagger, Time is not on My Side. Equally grateful too for all the commentators who take their time to comment on my article, whether supporting or “correcting” me, and in the light of new evidences from the net as regards to the issues that I touched above, whether it be numbers, police brutality, “peaceful” rallies and so on, I have taken the time to study them as best as I could, and I have visited the relevant youtube videos or photographs related to the rally displayed in other websites. I am now ready to discuss this issue again, admit my errors should there be any or correct my correctors if they warrant to be corrected.
But before I dwelve into that let me tell you a cute little story. My friend was involved in a minor accident in Klang some years back, between his car and a car driven by some young people. My friend said it was clearly his fault, and he was ready to face the consequences, but he needed the insurance to pay for both cars and so a police report must be made, understanding that if he does that, there will be additional fine by the police to him due to his error.
Now upon alighting at the Police station and presenting their stories and all the necessary documents, it turned out that none of the young driver or passengers in the other car had a valid driving license! With this revelation, the police shifted the fault purely on these youngsters and let my friend go free. They contented that once you are not with a valid driving license, EVERYTHING YOU DO ON THE ROAD is a crime. In fact just BEING there is a crime. Their whole presence, existence on the road is a crime, and crimes that other people seemed to have committed against you (like my friend) probably would not have been committed if the PRESENCE of a crime generator, crime nucleus (the young kids) was not there in the first place. Case closed, my friend got off scot free and some over-testosteroned adolescents got some lessons taught by their dads at home.
Such is the case of this BERSIH rally. We could just STOP any arguments right here and there, once the police have declared that it is illegal to have such an assembly. And not only that, the police have also issued a statement of what they will DO beforehand: close some parts of the roads, seal off some intersections and warn people not to continue their illegal march. Now by disobeying this order itself is a crime and technically, those who did attend it were criminals. Oh no—don’t be melodramatic and say that you are not murderers or rapists or thieves. You very well know that there are different grades of crimes. But a crime is a crime. Let’s get over that fact.
One thing that permeates the minds of these goers here is the false sense of absolution in doing a criminal act. “The police do not let us. But let us still go any way. What’s wrong in that”. How do I reply to such an error? Well perhaps with an analogy involving your daughter. She wants to go out with her friends late into the wee hours of the morning. Knowing that beforehand, you issue a warning not to leave the house without your permission. Secretly she goes out anyway, and when you admonish her the first thing when she returns at 4am, and asked her why she didn’t ask for your permission her reply was that if she had, you wouldn’t have given any permission anyway. Skewed logic? Feeble dialectic? Perhaps. But multiply that 6000 times in magnitude (or 50,000 or 300,000 whatever pleases you) and you now get the meaning of Bersih!
Continuing on your daughter, a most hideous event occurred: she was robbed and raped at 3am. “But it wasn’t my fault,” she said. “I didn’t wear any skimpy dresses or anything”. Again, the argument falls back to the same initial staunch syllogistic: “If you had not been out there initially and disobeying my orders, this would not have happened!” And here’s another clincher-scenario: let’s say BEFORE going out on that blissful, unlawful spree, your daughter had been WARNED by the robber that if anybody passes along this way or that, they would be robbed and raped. Yes, a most cartoonish example but for argument’s sake let’s say still she goes. So your daughter now is completely free from blame?
I can feel already some detractors reading this already cracking their knuckles and itchying to type on their keyboards: “but this is different. Your daughter’s story and the Bersih story are different. They are apples and oranges”. You are right, my friend. It doesn’t compare. The Bersih rally, had the police decided to allow it, would be much more worse than facing some over-pheromoned rapist facing skimpy-dressed girls.
Now let’s get to the matter at present. It seems that many points raised are more rhetorical rather than factual, especially those who care to reply in another “top-10 list” style. These are just knee-jerk reactions, and having glanced with one eye at some of them, I conclude that they have been answered in my initial postings and in some other comments anyway. But I think you all agree with me regarding ONE topic which rears up again and again: Police Brutality.
Apocryphalist says:
July 13, 2011 at 3:58 pm
**************************************************
Correcting the Correctors: Part 2
Were there any police brutalities? Well you know what, people. I think you better research more and get some MORE videos because I am not convinced that there is any police brutality AT ALL. If you say spraying with watersprays, chasing round the block, shouting to the crowd to disperse them is brutality, you really do NOT know what Brutality really is. Ok if you show that single video of a police kicking one protester, that is peanuts compared with what other police around the world do, facing insurgents. Additionally, one do not see the whole story:if, for example, the police reacted like that due to being provoked or even attacked (Tian Chua, you read this?), then kicking is the kindest thing a police can do.
“O My Gooddd! Is Apocryphalist condoning the brutal actions of the police shown in the multitudes of videos that abound out there?”. Answer: Yes, No, No and No.
Should the police should act with measures extraneous than just kind verbal “Di Pinta hadirin sekelian bersurai. Tolong lah”. Yes. Because once you do not heed police warnings and insistence, then should the police allow that to continue, you do not know to what lengths the mob could escalate their provocations.
Should the Police just allow the marches to just go on “peacefully” as they claimed? No. The KDN, the police have looked at all angles. Firstly the organizers said that they promise the rally to be non-political. Then all manner of political innuendos started creeping in, and the rally was led by political personages, minus the symbolic stooges.
Was it apolitical, free-from ideologies? Nope. They found banners and brochures extolling for and a return to old socialistic and communistic ideas. Could it just purely be peaceful if the police had allowed it? No. Prior to the rally, molotov cocktails were found, weapons were amassed and those with pure intent to just “grieve about elections” could be easily be hijacked into joining a truly dangerous, violent insurgent which has nothing to do with elections at all.
Are our policemen now joining the ranks of Brutal and Inhuman police force that are so much despised elsewhere in the globe? Not at all. Here’s what it means to be a REALLY brutal police force:-
Greece
Georgia
Spain:
Denmark
A word of advice though: please do NOT show these videos to our local Malaysian policemen, for fear they might regret that their actions last Saturday deemed too kind or sissy compared with what their other compatriots the rest of the world react when faced by such a situation.
But another factor intrigues my mind. That is the opposite of police brutality. What if the police are actually peaceful and non-violent, but it is the CROWD that provokes the violence in the frst place. There is great evidence here:
Important! Must See Video !
Please take time to watch the video above. Our discussions are based on it.
Now in this video we can clearly the following:-
The police are static, non-confrontational, non-provocative. And then:-
• Perhaps seeing no action, and not getting the correct reaction that he had in mind (videographer standing by to record “police Brutality”, ready to upload to mobile laptop instantly and then sent to youtube so that Malaysia can be broadcasted worldwide as an “Oppressing, Brutal, Violent regime”) Tian Chua gets impatient, discusses with some malay cows behind, and then “One, Two, Three … Chaaarggeee!” (or something to that effect). 0:16
• Only upon being charged in like manner by the hooligans, and as a defensive measure, the police fired out smoke cannisters to prevent the crowd from attacking them. 0:20
• If the police had not shot the relatively harmless smoke cans, no one knows what would have happened to those charging mob: in the attempt to attack the police, they themselves could have sustained much more serious injuries.
Interestingly, once the police fired the canisters, the rebel rousers lari bertempiaran like lipas kudung — Tian Chua and all. I know. This is not the time for jokes but heck, where goeth the fighting spirit, comrades? Or is it just all cock-talk?
Incidentally, now that the video is up and about, I think the powers that be should seriously look into this matter. This is not just a demo: this is pure evidence of the vicious and provocative nature of the “peaceful Bersih” mobsters, particularly of Tian Chua. I am sure we can find a lot of articles in our constitution that find such a behaviour as purely outright criminal.
Anyway I have a lot more to say but let’s have a look at Jebat’s latest article. What is this Bersih all about, what are its origins and how should a true Malaysian regard it.
Apocryphalist
Najib perlu pilih.., ikut jejak Mahathir atau tidur macam Pak Lah...
Perdana Menteri Datuk Seri Najib Razak berkata pihak polis menggunakan tindakan yang sewajarnya dalam usaha menyuraikan perhimpunan Bersih 2.0 di ibu negara Sabtu lalu.
“Ia (tahap tindakan polis) agak ringan sebab meskipun ia dikenakan, mereka (yang ditahan) telah dibebaskan selepas lapan jam dan mereka dilayan dengan baik,” kata beliau dalam temu bual dengan CNN hari ini.
“Tiada penggunaan tindakan yang tidak wajar dan penunjuk perasaan disuraikan dengan menggunakan pasukan yang minimum,” katanya.
Najib juga mengetepikan perhimpunan Sabtu lalu memperjuangkan pilihan raya bebas dan adil atas alasan ia bersifat tidak berkecuali dan menekankan pentadbirannya komited untuk “mengadakan (pembaharuan sistem pilihan raya) lebih baik.”
Perdana Menteri ditemu bual di Britain, di mana beliau mengadakan lawatan rasmi empat hari. - TMI
p/s: Sikit je gua nak tambah..., Najib sekarang ni kena pilih satu diantara dua opinion.., tegas macam Tun Mahathir.., ataupun slow dan tak alert macam Tun Lah..
Percayalah.., semua tu akan menentukan hala tuju Kerajaan BN pada PRU13 nanti...
Bersih Berjaya?
Filed Under ( berita pisau, BN ) by pisau on 15.7.11
Ya Bersih berjaya membuktikan kerajaan yang memerintah sekarang ini begitu takut mengambil langkah awal pencegahan.Adalah tidak adil untuk terus mengkritik menteri amaran sahaja kerana big boss seperti Ds Najib harus bertanggung jawab juga mengekang anasir anasir ini daripada menghalalkan cara secara berleluasa.
Komen seorang yang paling rapat dengan Pisau,walaupun beliau tidak aktif didalam politik amat pedih dan pahit untuk diterima. Katanya " Untung jadi pakatan rakyat,semuanya macam dapat lesen besar untuk buat apa saja sesuka hati.Hampir kesemua institusi kerajaan begitu takut untuk bertindak tegas ,Imej institusi dihancurkan begitu teruk hinggakan nak bertindak tegas pun takut dan teragak agak.Apa nak jadi dengan negara kita ni? Kerajaan buat apa?takut sangat pada sekumpulan minoriti ka?"
Apa yang Pisau dapat simpulkan disini kerajaan dibawah pimpinan Ds Najib begitu takut dengan kalimah "apa orang akan kata" dek kerana takut apa orang akan katalah perusuh diberi layanan istimewa,bukan kita tidak tahu kerana demo haram tu menyebabkan kerugian ratusan juta ringgit di Kuala Lumpur.
Kerana demo haram kehidupan seharian rakyat terganggu,segala urusan terpaksa dibatalkan.
Pedulikan apa orang nak kata wahai Ds Najib,asalkan negara kita aman,rakyat tak gelisah dan majoriti rakyat mahukan ketegasan dari pemimpin negara dalam mentadbir sebuah kerajaan.
Siapa kata kerajaan tegas rakyat tak sokong? Ketegasan dalam menjaga keselamatan negara paling banyak mendapat pujian sepertimana PDRM mengekang perhimpunan haram Bersih. Jangan takut melaksanakan undang undang,jangan takut dengan provokasi retorik sampah dari haprak pakatan.
Haprak pakatan dah berani nak buat Bersih 3.0,sebabnya apa nak takut ,syok kena tangkap dapat makan nasi buffet free.Kalau macam tu semua orang nak buat demo la bai...
Pisau kata "setuju dengan MPP,Ds Najib harus pilih,nak jadi Tun Mahathir atau nak jadi Tun Lah"
Read more: http://www.pisau.net/2011/07/bersih-berjaya.html#ixzz1S8ZGDk6R
source : pisau.net
SIAPA AMBIGA ??? KHAS UNTUK PENYOKONG BERSIH !!!
Filed Under ( berita pisau ) by pisau on 15.7.11
Pisau kata " patut la depa sayang sangat kat Ambiga"
source : pisau.net
TIAN CHUA DALANG GERAKAN PROVOKASI TERHADAP PIHAK POLIS ?! ... BUKTI VIDEO KLIP !
GWM sarankan Polis DiRaja Malaysia (PDRM) untuk melihat dan menyiasat dengan secara terperinci video klip ini, bagaimana Tian Chua mengemudi barisan anak muda menyerang pihak berkuasa.Dakwaan penganjur BERSIH perhimpunan pada 9 Julai 2011 adalah aman tanpa melibatkan provokasi terhadap pihak polis merupakan satu pembohongan besar!
Pihak polis dituduh melakukan kekerasan dan keganasan terhadap peserta BERSIH.Walhal serangan penganut PAS (Parti Ambiga Sreevanasan) ini yang membuatkan pihak polis terpaksa bertindak balas.
Apakah video klip ini rekaan semata-mata?
Tian Chua kelihatan mengepalai rusuhan dan serangan ke atas pihak berkuasa! Siap dengan laungan 1,2, ... serang diselang seli dengan laungan takbir!
Ini bukti sahih mengapa BERSIH 2.0 adalah peluang pembangkang untuk melancarkan provokasi terhadap pihak polis ... juga mahu menjatuhkan imej kerajaan BN dibawah pimpinan Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak.
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